IdahoVotes Forum

Are people really that adverse to raising state taxes if we knew it was going to help make our schools better?  Maybe add the 1% sales tax back on to everything but food and that extra 1% went strictly to schools.

What are the cons to this suggestion?  OR our state could go headway into the equal tax system that our federal government won't even look at and have a flat state tax.  That might bring in enough money that sales tax and property taxes could be significantly reduced.

Raising taxes is rarely good for the people.  More money does not equate with beter schools.  Sales taxes are the most repressive taxes invented because it hrms those on fixed incomes.

I agree, but raising taxes seems inevitable.  Things just go up in price and we're are trying to do the same things on less money.  Do you agree that schools should cut spending by reducing peoples wages, that doesn't seem right to me at all.  I don't want taxes to go up, but I don't want the education of my kids to suffer either.

I have contacted all my legislatures, the Governor and Tom Luna.  They all talk big about how important educating our kids are, but aren't willing to do what it takes to get there to help the kids acheive global marketability.  I wish I had the answers.

Maybe if we took a hard look at how many people are sucking off our sytem like twohundred million a year paying for illegal aliens to stay in our state,familys on medicaid and people taking advatage of unemployment,we are allowing to many people to be lazy. Raising taxes isn't always the best policy. Spending our money wisely will have a much greater impact. Yes, because of the spending going on at the federal level taxes will be raised!! But, how about cutting cost now! I have a feeling we blow more money than needs to be. Every penny should have a pupose now to save us in the long run. My poor children will be paying of the mistakes we are all making now. I just read an article that stated tax payers spent 300,000 last year on Mr. Obama and his associates coctails could we please just stop spending money! 

The funny thing about school spending is that it generally has no corrolation to the quality of education. Many private schools run on less money than the average public school, their teachers get paid less, have less generous benefits, and yet provide a better education. If what you are really after is educating our children, then maybe a school voucher system would be your answer. Allow the parent to decide where a quality education is to be found and seek it out.

I am completely against raising taxes.  There is no correlation between increased spending and increased learning.  I also am an advocate for year round schools and increasing the number of school days per year.  Until this happens, I see no reason for teachers to be paid as much as they are for 9 months of work. 

I'd love to see school vouchers take off.  When you put a dollar value on the head of each student and make schools begin to compete against each other for those dollars, schools will begin to get better or they will go away.

Schools are a bigger issue than just funding.  Parents need to get back to being more involved and the state government needs to re-learn what their role is.

 I am not sure how I feel about vouchers.  I don't really know a lot about how it works, but what I do know I don't like.  Too many people just don't care about their kids' education and I am afraid we would go from bad to worse in the percentage of uneducated.  Plus it would only work fairly if there were no public schools at all.  I hate using the word fair, because life isn't equal, life isn't fair.  But I do believe as much as possible education should be equal and available to all.  If I take my kid to a private school using a voucher, I am still going to have to pay more money to keep that child there, vouchers don't cover the whole cost.  What private school can I take my kid to that with a voucher its going to cost me nothing? I'll look into it.  I also don't think schools should compete to be great, they should work together to be great!

I am a huge proponent of year round schools, I think that is what school districts should be forced to do before building new buildings.  But if you want a bond to pass in Idaho Falls just tell them their kids might have to go to year round school and it will pass.  People here hate change more than any other place I've ever lived.  They would rather pay more in taxes.  But I think teachers should be some of the highest paid jobs out there.  I don't think teachers make too much money.  My brother in law is a teacher and their family lives on an exceedingly tight budget just to scrape by.  I am glad my husband didn't choose a teaching career because I would hate living like that, and you think they make too much?  They teach and inspire our future to be great...to be Dr's, Lawyer's, accountants etc.  I think its sad you think they make too much.

There is a set price on each child to be educated in Idaho, that's why administrators hate kids to take days off, it reduces the amount of money they receive.  I am a PTO president at a local elementary school, and I have a lot to do with money there.  People say that educators (administrators) waste money, yet I haven't seen anything in any school i've ever been in that I have considered to be wasteful spending.  And I disagree that more money doesn't improve education, I don't even see how that can be true.  There are tons of resourses out there, newer textbooks, better technology, etc. that would be so much more helpful in educating our kids, and better resources cost money. You will find good teachers that will work for less, there are teachers that love what they do, teachers who are just maybe second income for their families that it doesn't matter quite so much that they are getting paid a little less.  But in general the great teachers will go where the money is and that's too bad for us and our kids.

Why should the voucher cover the whole cost of the private education?

Yes, I do think teachers make too much money for working 180 days of the year.  They chose to become teachers, thus they knew what they were getting into and how much money they were going to make.  You don't become a teacher with the intention of becoming rich.  My sister, brother in law, and many, many friends are teachers.  I know the budgets that they have to live on, but at the same time, they knew that when they decided to go to school and get the degree.  Why should they make more money by working less days than someone in the private sector?

You are a PTO president and you haven't seen ANYTHING in ANY school that you've EVER been in that you would consider to be wasteful spending?  Without knowing who you are or anything about you, I know have to seriously question whether or not you are up to the task of being a PTO president. 

You are on a website affiliated with the Idaho Freedom Foundation.  Please look up the article that refers to the amount of money the Boise school district spends per student vs. the amount of money the Meridian school district spends per student.  More money does not equal a better education.  Are kids smarter now than they were 50 years ago because a computer is in their classroom or new textbooks are on the desk?

If a teacher is moving around from school to school to chase a higher paycheck, I don't want them anywhere near my kids.

 I am sorry I got your comment and someone elses mixed up.  I read one that said private school education was in most cases cheaper than what public schools run on, if that's the case then a voucher should cover it.  I apologize for getting mixed up.

Its funny what you said about teachers and salary, I've said that exact same thing to others before.  In fact it makes me crazy when I hear a teacher complain that they have to do things at home or work extra hours.  I believe that a salaried person gets paid for doing a job no matter how many hours it takes, at least thats how my husbands salaried job works.   I also can't think of any other job that you can call up a volunteer and say I don't have enough time to get my job done today can you come and help me?  That being said, I don't think they should get a pay cut either.  Its getting harder and harder to find teachers, people don't want to become teachers (because yes they do care about money) and it won't be long before there is a shortage.  I do think higher salaries will bring the ability to get better teachers.  I think that your in denial if you think money doesn't matter to teachers and only the best teachers care about the education of a child and not the money they can make doing it.  If that was the case we'd have a voluntary staff at our schools to teach.  I want the most qualified people teaching my kids not those who are willing to take what they can get. These people went to college and got a degree they deserve a decent wage.  I can't believe you think teachers should be held to a higher standard, such as you must be kind, compassionate, loving, have a strong desire to inspire greatness, and not care how much you get paid while doing it is that what makes a teacher qualified?  That is a very selfish attitude.

I am also sorry you don't think I deserve to be PTO President because I don't see the waste in my school. Maybe I don't, but unlike the 300 other families at my school I do care about my school and am willing to give up my time to make it better, no one else stepped up and I did.

I really would like to know what you think is wasteful?  When school districts get money from the state of Idaho they are told exactly how they can spend it.  All money comes with strings attatched.  So much has to be spent on salaries, so much on textbooks, special education, ESL, food services, and on down the line.  Most of the money school districts get is earmarked for salaries.  There really isn't a lot of extra money to be wasted.  I would really like to know what you think the money is wasted on? 

I think the way the state mandates the way money should be spent is more wasteful than anything. Here's an example: What if as a district we don't need new textbooks this year?  Well you use that money on textbooks or you lose it, it can't be spent any other way "they" (you know who "they" are right?) said!  The districts have to spend it on textbooks, that's the way it works.  This upcoming year a "state of emergency" was made for school districts giving them back the power over thier own money. Which is where it belongs.   I also believe the state could save money by having a health care program (insurance) on a statewide basis.  Each individual school district has to negotiate their own, the smaller the district, the more they spend. Just like large corporations get a better rate, so could the state.  I bet they could cut 25% of the expense of insurance and have better coverage for their staffs.  

The wasteful things I see are things that just can't be helped or changed by the districts.  Can you imagine the price they could get on Copier paper if they bought it in statewide quantities, or on ink and toner if they could buy in bulk because things were more uniform?  Every teacher in our elementary school has a different printer, each takes different ink cartridges, and each teacher has to pay for their own out of their own pocket.  Do you pay for your own ink and toner at your job? PTO's pay for a lot, we raise money so our schools can have those extra's that people find wasteful.  We help teachers with classroom budgets so they don't have to spend so much out of their own pockets to make class time more fun and interesting.  Schools don't even have the money for art supplies anymore.  Have you read the book or seen the movie Matilda?  I don't want my kids in that school run by someone like the Trunchbull just because that's all our budget is right now.  Education is a worthwhile socialist program...the only worthwhile socialist program!  And one I am more than willing to help make better through my volunteer time and through my tax dollars and the many more dollars I donate to the schools.

By the way I looked on that website to find the boise and meridian comparison and can't find it, can you help with a link?  I found one that has all districts in a PDF file is that what your talking about?

Do you have any evidence that suggests there is anything close to a teacher shortage or that it is hard to find teachers or that there are fewer students going to college to become teachers?

Of course money matters, but people don't go into teaching to be wealthy.  If they are, then they're not smart enough to be a teacher.  Also, if you want the most qualified teachers for your kids, you should look into a private education.  What do you mean by 'they deserve a decent wage'?  Have they earned that decent wage?  What is a decent wage?

I would say that buying textbooks when they aren't needed is wasteful.  What would be so wrong about not spending that money and 'loosing' it?  There are a lot of taxpayers that would love to see that money saved, rather than spent.  You'll have to go into greater detail for me to make a judgement call on the salaries and other items you listed.  I don't know enough about your specific situation to make a decision.  Are they setting aside monies for you and you have to give them to teachers or food services, etc.?  I will agree with you that the control definitely needs to be more local.  I heard Rex Rammel say this very thing last night in the debate.

Education in this republic was set up by the Founders to educate the electorate.  I can't imagine how they, of all people, would have created a socialist program.  Care to elaborate?

Here is the link to the Boise vs. Meridian school districts $ per student.   http://www.idahofreedom.net/blog/getting-what-you-pay

billtam1:

  And I disagree that more money doesn't improve education, I don't even see how that can be true.

I can understand your skepticism, but the proof is in the pudding:

http://4brevard.com/choice/international-test-scores.htm

Go there and look at how our schools in the US fare against other countries. As you can see, by the time we hit graduation, many countries, some 2nd and 3rd world, are outperforming us. That is why more money doesn't correlate to better education: we are spending more than the rest of them.

Oh, and the reason private schools cost a seemingly large amount of money to attend is because they receive little or no taxpayer support, not because they (necessarily) cost more to run.

 Zunalter - very interesting website, thank you for the resource.  I will take some time and look it over more throughly.  It's an interesting thought that these top countries teach how to use math not how to do math.  I have always thought timed math tests were a total waste of an educators time.  Who cares if your kid memorized their nine times tables and can do it 30 seconds faster than my kids.  Although I am not sure about the science where they teach 5 concepts instead of 35, thats very specialized education. Is that teaching to the test?  I guess I am a delusional American, because I tend to believe that kids need room to move and grow and discover who they are.  I don't believe that in other countries their students are allowed that freedom. When you don't live in a communist country its going to be hard to force teahers to put in longer hours for the same pay. I don't think in a country like ours you will ever get teachers to put in that kind of time without increasing cost.   In Japan they go to school from 6 or 7 in the morning and sometimes don't get home until 8 or 9 at night, because after school they go to study classes.  I don't want that or think its necessary. I think in America we tend to give our students more choice when it comes to education.  More well rounded one might say. 

On the other hand, two of my children were very bright in elementary school, things came naturally and easy for them, they didn't need the repitition that other kids need to learn.  Yet instead of challenging that, schools let it sit.  I was told that by 4th grade the rest of the kids would be caught up, it won't matter, and then they would be on more equal ground.  Well yeah! Duh!  If you don't really teach a kid or challenge them of course they aren't going to get ahead of the other kids. I wish they had better programs, and better funding for the Gifted and Talented programs. Most funding goes to building up the below average kids.  I would like to know in these other countries do they pull their brightest kids out and educate them seperately from the average or low?  That would be an interesting statistic.  Public schools here believe having advanced kids in a classroom with below average, helps the below average.  I believe it holds back the above average more than it helps the below.

All in all, in my opinion, too many variables to take into consideration in other countries for me to compare with American educational system.  I think some things could be implemented for the good, but most of these kids that come here from other countries are socially awkward, they may be geniuses but from experience they are much harder to work alongside of.  They will always be in the lab, I don't see them as CEO's.  But then again I could be wrong!!

I think this website points out good things, but I don't see the fix.  Just another person pointing at the problem.  And if we switch to a different curriculum where is the money going to come from to change that? What are the realistic practical ways to change the system now?  Public Choice, great but its not going to happen now and will be expensive.  Kids start leaving the schools we have now how do we afford to maintain and upkeep these buildings, that takes money out of the system we have now so I am not a huge fan of that...or charter schools for that matter.  Until they give control to local school districts like they do to charters I don't want to see anymore charters formed, they take money from local schools too.  New curriculm...more money for textbooks and teacher training.  How do we fix it?

I am willing to fight for change, and stand up for the best things, I want my kids to have the best education possible.  But the change has to make sense, and be cost effective.

 Moderator, I posted a reply and it didn't come through it said it needs approval, but none of my others did...do I have retype it?  Not the new reply either it was a reply to Zbrooks post.

I appreciate your kind and well thought out reply. I hope I haven't been coming off harsh or condescending. I don't necessarily disagree with any specific point, but I think this issue is so emotionally charged that the logic seems to be second place.

I don't summarily oppose teacher raises, but they would have to be tied to performance. Unions are ruining the teaching profession, just look at New Jersey. They are asked to contribute 1.5% (their current contribution is 0%) to their health care to avoid layoffs and they refuse.

Also, as a conservative, I know that a lot of the money that could be running schools is wasted on the layers of bureaucracy. Also, I oppose the Federal Dept. of Education out of principle, since I don't think that the federal govt. should be involved in controlling what my child learns and doesn't learn. Also, you made several good points about holding gifted students back in the public schools. I had that same experience myself in school.

Anyways, it is a difficult side of the fence to be on, there are a lot of very emotional variables that almost cannot be talked about in a cold, calculated manner. Though, in the end, to bring sanity to this discussion, that might be exactly what we need to do.

 Thank You its kind of you to say! I don't think you've been harsh or condescending.  I love discussing the issues and unless someone is very blunt and outright rude I don't think much about it.  I try to word things politely, and I am not mad, just frustrated with the issues.  I consider most people passonate, and discussing with people who always agree with you will get you nowhere!! 

I am glad to hear that merit pay is something you agree with I do too,  I also wish they would get rid of tenure.  At our school we have one really great Kindergarten teacher and one that's not so great that has tenure.  Everyone requests the great one, last year we almost didn't have enough students to keep her full time (because a tenured teacher gets to keep full time status above one that's not) and she was going to be forced to leave because she wants full time.  I was furious, why would we get rid of one of the best teachers and keep the worse one just because of tenure!!!  Its a shame.

Maybe it seems strange, but I am a conservative too.  I just really want better schools, and if it takes money that is one area I am willing to give it!  I want more ideas to help make my school better.  I am a PTO president and I spend a lot of time at the school, a lot of fundraising and try to do things the best I can to make it better.  There is a person on here that keeps saying schools are wasteful.  I just don't see it.  Maybe at the top, but I don't really see it at the district level too much either.   I am not sure there is one right answer.

So are you for consolidation of school districts?  Or is that taking local control away?  Just a question?